Interview by Todd Matthews

TODD MATTHEWS: You were a friend of Paul Desmond's for more than 20 years. While you were writing this book, did you learn new things about Desmond that were previously unknown to you? And if so, what were they, and how did they give you a deeper understanding of Desmond?

DOUG RAMSEY: I would have to read you half of the book to answer adequately. Paul was a very private person. He didn't even speak to his close friends about his family or youth. Everything in the book that deals with his growing up and his parents was largely unknown. I learned many things—in particular, the extremely close relationship between Paul and his father. His mother was emotionally troubled. His father didn't exactly insulate Paul, but he made it acceptable to him so that he was not disturbed by it. The fact that his mother had a touching phobia must have had something to do with Paul's personality. Dad was able to treat Paul as a loving son as well as intellectual equal in playing chess. That's something that no one could have known. It only came out in Paul's correspondence found after his death.

MATTHEWS: The Dave Brubeck and Paul Desmond pairing is one of the most popular collaborations in jazz. What is your understanding of their relationship, why they worked so well together, and how they complemented one another?

RAMSEY: It was kind of magical. They both referred to it as ESP. The first time they performed together was briefly in the Army. Later on, they performed at Geary Cellar in San Francisco. There wasn't any discussion or plan—they just seemed to be on the same wavelength in many respects. But they also understood their strengths and needs. They fit together like a hand in a glove. Even they can't explain it. Brubeck can't explain it to this day. It worked from the beginning. This is almost a cliché, but Paul was a melodic improviser, and Brubeck was a powerful pianist who was deep harmonically. They were just able to complement each other really well.

MATTHEWS: To some extent, your book is a biography of the "Take 5" recording in terms of how it was produced, how it transcended the genre of jazz, and its commercial success. I read an interview with Desmond where he initially thought the song was a ‘throw-away' tune and wouldn't have much commercial appeal. In reality, how important was the "Take 5" recording in the context of the overall jazz recording repertoire, and how much of it was a reflection of Desmond's style?

RAMSEY: They were all surprised. Brubeck's great quote was that they were innocent of trying to make a hit record. Columbia was against them making a whole album with that unique time signature of 5/4. They discussed doing an album in various time signatures, and Desmond ended up with 5/4 because nobody else in the group had written anything in 5/4 time. He wrote a couple of themes in 5/4, brought them both in to a rehearsal at Dave's house in Connecticut. Dave said, "I think it needs something." That turned out to be the bridge. They put them together, and it just happened. The song wasn't an immediate hit. Columbia was still fighting it, and wanted another album of standards. I think it was a year-and-a-half after the album was released, Columbia needed to get a single out. They used "Take 5," and it became an enormous hit. It was a matter of people and DJs liking the hit in spite of Columbia, not because of Columbia. Whether you would say that piece was a reflection of Desmond's style, I can't say it was typical. It was just a lucky accident.

MATTHEWS: You write about how the "Take 5" recording kept surfacing in some of the most unusual places. In one example, you came across the tune when you opened a music box you discovered in a shop in Prague. What aspects of the song leant itself to such a large commercial appeal?

RAMSEY: It was a catchy tune. It also was that vamp that Brubeck played at the introduction with Joe Morello in the background. And Joe's solo on that tune is the most prominent thing in the recording. It was one of those unexplainable phenomenons where the public latches onto something because they like it. Usually it's because of melody, at least in the pre-rock-and-roll sense. It has a strong and memorable melody that's a lot of fun. I should add that "Take 5" had a long life with the Brubeck group. They kept playing it. I've asked them all about this: they just never got tired of it. There was so much you could do with that song. Long after Paul retired and then formed his own quartet, they played it all the time. It developed almost into this mysterious, Near Eastern "snake charmer" music. Don Thompson jokes that they eventually referred to it as "Camel" because it reminded them of an evening at the oasis. So it took on a lot of aspects. If you compare the original hit recording with Brubeck's performance of it at the Carnegie Hall concert, it's quite different. It's much more daring and adventurous.

MATTHEWS: Did you ever discuss with Paul the idea of writing his biography while he was alive?

RAMSEY: Paul claimed that he was writing a book about the quartet entitled, 'How Many of You Are There in the Quartet?' He only wrote one chapter of it, which is reproduced in my book. There isn't any indication that he wrote any more of that. My conclusion was that back in the 1940s, when Paul was really struggling and debating with himself about whether to be a writer or a musician, he chose to be a musician. It was the right thing for him to have done. Writing is tough and takes a lot of work and commitment. Paul had the gift of being able to express himself by playing the choruses of a few tunes, and then forgetting about it. He didn't have to go back to it. You finished what you were working on the minute you finished that solo. No matter how much preparation you have done in your life, once that creation is done, it's done. Being a jazz soloist was the perfect thing for Paul to be.

Doug Ramsey is the author of Take 5: The Public and Private Lives of Paul Desmond, available from Parkside Publications.

This interview originally appeared in Earshot Jazz